| View Agenda for this meeting View Action Summary for this meeting REGULAR MEETING -- ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS Proceedings had and testimony taken in the matters of ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS at City of Novi, 45175 West Ten Mile Road, Novi, Michigan, on Thursday, November 6, 2003. BOARD MEMBERS ALSO PRESENT: REPORTED BY: 1 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: I realize that it's a 2 few minutes early, but we will get started, since our 3 cases are here this evening. I see them out in the 4 audience. 5 Sarah, please call -- I'd like to -- 6 sorry -- the November 2003 Zoning Board of Appeals 7 meeting to order. 8 Sarah, please call the roll. 9 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Bauer, he's 10 absent excused. 11 Member Brennan? 12 MEMBER BRENNAN: Here. 13 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gatt? 14 MEMBER GATT: Here. 15 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gray? 16 MEMBER GRAY: Present. 17 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Present. 18 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Reinke? 19 MEMBER REINKE: Here. 20 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: The Zoning Board of 21 Appeals is a hearing board empowered by the Novi City 22 Charter to hear appeals seeking variances from the 23 application of the Novi zoning ordinances. 24 It takes a vote of at least four
3 1 members to approve a variance request, and a vote of 2 majority of the members present to deny a variance. 3 This evening -- I'm going to step out 4 of this little reading that I do and explain that we 5 have five members here this evening. Our fifth 6 member has been elected to the city council and will 7 only be sitting in on the first case since that case 8 has been tabled from last month, and that will leave 9 four members for that case. The rest of the cases 10 heard this evening will only have four members. 11 Any petitioners who wish to table their 12 request this evening until the next meeting when a 13 full board is present may do so now. Any board 14 decision made tonight will be final. 15 We had the agenda in our packet -- or, 16 I'm sorry. Is there any changes to the agenda? 17 MS. MARCHIONI: Just one. Please at 18 2450 Shawood under other matters. 19 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. That's going to 20 be presented by Mr. Saven. 21 And I would like to add the discussion 22 of the contact of the city council for an alternate 23 and a new ZBA member and not wait until January. 24 MEMBER BRENNAN: Madam Chair?
4 1 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Yes. 2 MEMBER BRENNAN: I just want to make 3 sure that the audience understands that we will only 4 have four members voting on these cases tonight. You 5 have to have all four to be approved, okay, so if you 6 aren't real sure with your case, or would like to 7 have more members hear your case, now is the time to 8 raise your hand. 9 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. You can come 10 down to the podium so the folks at home can hear you, 11 please. 12 MR. GERACZ: Okay. I just want to wait 13 until the next agenda. 14 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: I'm sorry, sir. Can I 15 have your name, please. 16 MR. GERACZ: It's Robert Geracz, 17 G-e-r-a-c-z. I would be number 12. 18 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. So you wish to 19 table it until next month? 20 MR. GERACZ: Which would be December 21 2nd; is that correct? 22 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Yes. 23 MR. GERACZ: Okay. If I may do so. Is 24 that it?
5 1 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: That's it, sir. 2 MR. GERACZ: Thank you very much. 3 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you. Anyone 4 else that wishes to have their case tabled until next 5 month? 6 (No response.) 7 UNIDENTIFIED: I have a question. I'm 8 here representing Gander Mountain on their sign 9 issue, and I'm here with the assumption that there 10 will be some give and take with the board about the 11 size of the signs, size and number of signs. Will 12 that still be the case tonight? 13 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Well, it's the same 14 board. I'm sure that when we review your case, as we 15 discussed with you last month, that would still, you 16 know, that discussion will go on. 17 You can probably -- my suggestion, if 18 you would, is probably have the discussion this 19 month, because we have the correct information- 20 UNIDENTIFIED: (Interposing) Yes. 21 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: -and see how it goes 22 as opposed to tabling it. 23 UNIDENTIFIED: Thank you. 24 MEMBER GRAY: Another gentleman just
6 1 came in in the back. 2 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Anyone else? 3 (No response.) 4 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: I apologize for the 5 inconvenience to anyone who had to table their case, 6 but these things are just unforeseen. 7 Minutes. We had the minutes in our 8 packet. Are there any changes or -- I'm sorry. Any 9 changes to the minutes? 10 (No response.) 11 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: All in favor of the 12 approval of the minutes from last month, say aye. 13 (Vote taken.) 14 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Opposed? 15 (Vote taken.) 16 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: None. At this time, 17 if there's anyone in the audience that wishes to make 18 a public remark in regards to a case other than 19 that's -- what's on the agenda this evening, they can 20 now approach the board and speak their peace so to 21 speak. Anyone in the audience that has anything to 22 say to the ZBA? 23 (No response.) 24 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. Seeing none, we
7 1 will go ahead and call our first case; however, 2 before we call our first case, there's a lot of 3 changes here this evening. I, again, will recuse 4 myself from Case Number 03-086. This has been tabled 5 from last month. 6 Mr. Miras is here, and Mr. Gatt will be 7 taking that position. Miss Gray will be running the 8 meeting. 9 10 CASE NUMBER 03-086 11 MEMBER GRAY: First case, Mr. Miras. 12 MEMBER BRENNAN: Mr. Miras does not 13 have to be sworn. This is a continuation. 14 MEMBER GRAY: Okay. Do you want to 15 continue with your -- any other information you may 16 have? 17 MR. MIRAS: Okay. Well, we were before 18 the board last month for two variances, one for a 19 hundred and twenty foot variance -- or thirty foot 20 variance, from one twenty to one fifty, and the 21 second one was a setback variance of four feet six 22 inches. 23 And because with this variance it would 24 not make up an acre lot, we now request that a third
8 1 variance to conform to the acreage, and the third 2 variance would be .311 acres that we're requesting. 3 And with these three variances it would 4 make this lot a buildable lot conforming to all the 5 rest of the lots in the adjoining area. 6 The reason it is not conformed right 7 now is because of the zoning change after it was 8 purchased, after I purchased it. It went -- it 9 changed zoning, so as of right now it's not buildable 10 but with these three variances it would conform to 11 everything that's surrounding it. 12 So that's what we're asking the board 13 to do. 14 MEMBER GRAY: Thank you. This was 15 renoticed, wasn't it? Okay. There were seventeen 16 notices sent; three approvals, one objection. And 17 for the- 18 MS. MARCHIONI: (Interposing) The pink 19 one is the second one. 20 MEMBER GRAY: Second one. Seventeen 21 notices sent; nine approvals, zero objections, none 22 sent back. 23 The only objection was from last month, 24 and -- okay.
9 1 Is there anybody in the audience who 2 wishes to address the board on this matter? 3 (No response.) 4 MEMBER GRAY: No one. Okay. Building 5 Department? 6 MR. SAVEN: As indicated, the gentleman 7 was before us -- or before you at the last meeting, 8 and the issue regarding the R-A district is one which 9 is the additional variance which is before you. The 10 other two variances are the same. There were no 11 changes to those particular variances. It's a fact 12 that this is an R-A zoning district and should have 13 been picked up. I do apologize for not picking it 14 up. I apologize to the applicant and the board 15 members here. It was my responsibility except it was 16 overlooked. Anyhow, that's the reason why he's here 17 today. 18 MEMBER GRAY: Thank you. Members of 19 the board? Mr. Brennan. 20 MEMBER BRENNAN: Mr. Miras, if this lot 21 is split, what's your intentions, what do you plan on 22 doing? 23 MR. MIRAS: The buyer intends to build 24 on it. I don't know when, but he does intend to
10 1 build. 2 MEMBER BRENNAN: So you've got somebody 3 lined up to buy this parcel? 4 MR. MIRAS: Yes, I do. 5 MEMBER BRENNAN: That's all. Thank 6 you. 7 MEMBER GATT: I have a question. If a 8 new buyer purchases the lot, will he or she then have 9 to come before the city council or the board? 10 MR. SAVEN: No. 11 MEMBER GATT: No. So the variance, if 12 it's granted tonight, will- 13 MR. SAVEN: (Interposing) Stays with 14 the property. 15 MEMBER GRAY: Goes with the property 16 unless they need setback variances, which then would 17 pull it back here; is that correct, Mr. Saven? 18 MR. SAVEN: Pardon me? 19 MEMBER GRAY: If any variances are 20 requested, it would come back to us, correct? 21 MR. SAVEN: That's correct. If it was 22 for an issue regarding the building and the setback 23 requirements for the building, it would require them 24 to come back to the Zoning Board of Appeals.
11 1 MEMBER GATT: Then I have another 2 question. How many homes on that block now do not 3 comply with the R-A? 4 MR. SAVEN: That I couldn't tell you, 5 sir. 6 MEMBER GATT: Are there homes there 7 now? 8 MR. MIRAS: Fourteen. 9 MEMBER GATT: Are there homes there now 10 that do not comply? 11 MR. MIRAS: I think- 12 MR. SAVEN: (Interposing) I'm not 13 sure. It goes back to the possible potential change 14 in the zoning district from what it was to what it is 15 now, and what we consider grandfathering it, 16 grandfathering no longer is part of the ordinance, so 17 it could be that there are conflicts out there. 18 MEMBER GRAY: Mr. Gatt, it says that 19 the City-initiated rezoning happened in March of '89, 20 so it went from R-1 to R-A in March of '89, which is 21 well over ten years, closing in on fifteen. 22 MEMBER GATT: Does anybody on the board 23 know, since March of '89 has this board granted 24 variances in the lot size?
12 1 MEMBER BRENNAN: Not lot sizes. I 2 remember setback cases in that area. 3 MEMBER REINKE: It's hard to say 4 because you're looking at individual cases, and 5 usually it's when somebody's building something out 6 there. I don't recall us running into lot splits. 7 With the existing zoning being an R-1, it would 8 comply with that. 9 With no objections from the neighbors 10 of what you're trying to do and everything else, I 11 really don't have a problem with what he's trying to 12 do. 13 MEMBER GATT: I know. I just -- okay. 14 Thank you. 15 When did you buy the lot? 16 MR. MIRAS: About 21 years ago. 17 MEMBER GATT: About 21 years ago? 18 MR. MIRAS: Yes. 19 MEMBER GATT: Thank you. 20 MEMBER BRENNAN: I'd like to move this 21 along. I'll make a motion with respect to Case 22 03-086, I would move that we grant the variance in 23 this case because the petitioner has established a 24 practical difficulty. The compliance with this
13 1 strict letter of the restrictions of the ordinance 2 would unreasonably prevent the use of the property 3 and be unnecessary burdensome. 4 One of the variances is very minuscule 5 given the size of the property. He would have met it 6 under the zoning that he bought it for. I think it's 7 only fair that the variance is granted. 8 MEMBER REINKE: Support. 9 MEMBER GATT: So the motion for support 10 is for all three variances? 11 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yes, sir. 12 MEMBER GRAY: Any further discussion on 13 the motion? 14 (No further discussion.) 15 MEMBER GRAY: I just have some comments 16 I'd like to place on the record. Generally when 17 there is a lot split and it takes one parcel that is 18 conforming and then leaves us with two parcels that, 19 for all intents and purposes, are nonconforming, 20 which is what we have in this case, I generally would 21 not support it. However, since the -- under -- since 22 the zoning has been in affect there, the houses that 23 are in existence do -- it's not going to be any 24 different. I apologize for my fumbling. It's not
14 1 going to be different, so I am going to support this, 2 although in general I would not. 3 So, Sarah, would you call the roll, 4 please. 5 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Brennan? 6 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yes. 7 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Reinke? 8 MEMBER REINKE: Yes. 9 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gatt? 10 MEMBER GATT: Yes. 11 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gray? 12 MEMBER GRAY: Yes. 13 MS. MARCHIONI: Motion passes four to 14 nothing. 15 MEMBER GRAY: Motion passes four to 16 nothing. Mr. Miras, You have your variances. See 17 the building department. 18 MR. MIRAS: Thank you very much. 19 MEMBER BRENNAN: Madam Chair, I'd like 20 to go on the record as congratulating Mr. Gatt and 21 thanking him for his time that he spent on the ZBA 22 and wish you well on city council. Your meetings 23 will be longer. 24 MEMBER GRAY: And much more frequent.
15 1 MEMBER BRENNAN: Thanks a lot. 2 MEMBER GATT: Thank you everybody. I 3 enjoyed my time here, and I want the public to know, 4 watching them here, that you have a very dedicated 5 board here, and we should be very proud of them. 6 Thank you very much. 7 MEMBER GRAY: Thank you. 8 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Bob, I just want to 9 say thank you for coming in tonight, especially for 10 this case. And it would have caused an inconvenience 11 to the resident tabling it again, and you helped me 12 out. 13 And so, again, congratulations. 14 MEMBER GATT: Thank you, you all. 15 MEMBER GRAY: Madam Chair, there are 16 some people who came in after the fact, and in light 17 of the situation, you may want to offer the same 18 courtesy to them about tabling. 19 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: For those who arrived 20 late to the meeting this evening, normally we have a 21 full board; however, this evening we do not due to 22 the fact, as you saw, that one of our members was 23 just elected to city council, and we do not have an 24 alternate.
16 1 This evening, because we have only four 2 voting members, you will need all four votes for your 3 cases to be approved. 4 If you're not comfortable with that and 5 you wish to table your case until next month, anyone 6 who's come in late and didn't hear me say that 7 earlier, can do so now, if you're interested in doing 8 that. 9 Is there anyone else that would be 10 interested in tabling the case because we do not have 11 a full board this evening? 12 (No response.) 13 14 CASE NUMBER 03-079 15 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. Seeing none, 16 we'll move next to Case Number 03-079 filed by David 17 Banyon at 25827 Strath Haven. 18 Mr. Banyon is requesting three 19 variances for the construction of a proposed 20 two-story home with an attached garage. 21 Good evening. Are you Mr. Banyon? 22 MR. BANYON: Yes, I am. 23 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Would you please raise 24 your right hand and be sworn in by our temporary
17 1 secretary, Mr. Brennan. 2 MEMBER BRENNAN: Do you swear or affirm 3 that the information you're going to give us tonight 4 will be the truth? 5 MR. BANYON: I do. 6 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Go ahead. 7 MR. BANYON: I'm here tonight to 8 request three variances for construction of a 9 proposed two-story home with an attached garage. 10 The first variance is a front setback 11 variance of 9.86 feet. This is the bare minimum. 12 The house itself falls within the setback, but the 13 porch actually extends over, which is why we require 14 the front variance. 15 I'm also requesting a side yard setback 16 variance of 2.37 feet, and a total aggregate side 17 variance of .36 feet. 18 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. Anything else? 19 MR. BANYON: Nope, that's it. 20 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: All right. There were 21 twenty-nine notices sent; two approvals, no 22 objections -- this is a table -- I'm sorry. So the 23 second, there were twenty-nine notices sent; one 24 approval, no objections.
18 1 Is there anyone in the audience that 2 wishes to address the board in regards to this case? 3 (No response.) 4 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Seeing none, Building 5 Department? 6 MR. SAVEN: I will inform the board 7 this -- Pioneer Meadows is probably one of the most 8 fun subdivisions as far as zoning goes. 9 I don't know how long anybody's -- 10 going back in time, this particular project was 11 initially zoned agricultural, then it went to R-4, 12 then it went to R-1, then it went to R-A zoning 13 district. It's a very complicated subdivision. 14 As you can recall, there was a time 15 when we did have grandfathering as part of the 16 ordinance. It's no longer part of the ordinance; 17 therefore, we're still under the R-A zoning district, 18 and those are the variances that are before you 19 today, based upon the R-A zoning district. 20 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay, thank you. 21 Board members? 22 MEMBER BRENNAN: No. Audience? 23 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: I'm sorry. I already 24 did the audience.
19 1 MEMBER BRENNAN: I'm sorry. 2 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Board members. Is 3 there a homeowner's association? 4 MR. BANYON: Yes, there is. 5 MEMBER GRAY: Do you have a letter of 6 approval from them? 7 MR. BANYON: I submitted signed -- they 8 signed my prints and my site plans. I submitted them 9 to the building department with my permit 10 application. So, yes, I did speak with the 11 association. 12 MEMBER GRAY: I didn't see it on here. 13 Thank you. 14 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Anyone else? 15 MEMBER BRENNAN: Sure. My take on this 16 is that these requirements are fairly minimal. It -- 17 the house itself, in this location, fits with what is 18 already in that subdivision, and if we had an 19 overwhelming nonsupport from his neighbors, if they 20 were here, I'd feel different, but I'm compelled to 21 support the petitioner. 22 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. 23 MEMBER REINKE: Madam Chairman? 24 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Yes, Member Reinke.
20 1 MEMBER REINKE: Really, the 2 intrusions -- the side yard setbacks, you're looking 3 at 50 feet aggregate. You got 2.37 and .36, and the 4 front yard setback is mainly due to a porch overhang, 5 so it's really a minimum intrusion of the building 6 into the setbacks, so I can support the petitioner's 7 request. 8 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. I concur with 9 the three members. 10 Anyone would like to make a motion? 11 MEMBER GRAY: I'd like to ask a 12 question before we make a motion. You said that the 13 porch is the reason. Doesn't your garage extend even 14 closer to the front, or is there a variance -- it 15 looks like the garage is closer to the road. 16 MR. BANYON: Yeah. The garage does 17 extend over, and it's -- well, it's due to the shape 18 of the lot at the front of the -- where it meets 19 Strath Haven. 20 MEMBER GRAY: Okay. 21 MR. BANYON: So, yeah, it does -- the 22 garage does come over as well. 23 MEMBER GRAY: Okay. Madam Chair, in 24 the matter of Case 03-079, I'll move to approve the
21 1 variance requested due to the lot configuration and 2 the fact that the variances requested, at least on 3 the sides, are minimal. 4 MEMBER BRENNAN: Support. 5 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: We have a motion and a 6 second. Any further discussion? 7 (No further discussion.) 8 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Sarah, please call the 9 roll. 10 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gray? 11 MEMBER GRAY: Yes. 12 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Brennan? 13 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yes. 14 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gronachan? 15 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes. 16 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Reinke? 17 MEMBER REINKE: Yes. 18 MS. MARCHIONI: Motion passes four to 19 nothing. 20 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Mr. Banyon, you 21 received your variance. Please go see the building 22 department. 23 MR. BANYON: Thank you very much. 24 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: You're welcome.
22 1 2 CASE NUMBER 03-081 3 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Moving now to Case 4 Number 03-081 filed by Stanley -- and I'll apologize 5 ahead of time -- Golembiewski at 6 24706 Glenda. Mr. Golembiewski is requesting a 280 7 square foot variance for construction of an addition 8 to an attached garage. 9 This case was tabled from last month, 10 and I take it you went back home and did some 11 homework. 12 MR. GOLEMBIEWSKI: Well, I -- with 13 extra expense, I decided that I was going to go 14 against the garage. My neighbors didn't like it. It 15 was asking for, I guess, too many square feet, so 16 what I did is I changed my plan. 17 Right now I want an extension on my 18 existing attached garage of 280 square feet. 19 The garage I have now, my handicap van 20 doesn't fit in. There's -- the garage itself is 21 seven foot five inches for the opening, and my van is 22 eight foot five inches tall, so -- and with the lift 23 in the van -- I mean, the lift that's in the garage, 24 it takes up ten feet from the back of the garage, so
23 1 that it doesn't leave enough room to put a vehicle 2 inside. 3 So what I'm requesting is that I can 4 have the extension of ten feet and then two garage 5 doors so that I can utilize the one garage door to go 6 in and drop the lift and my son won't have to be out 7 in the weather, my handicapped son. 8 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. Anything else? 9 MR. GOLEMBIEWSKI: That's it. 10 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: All right. Is there 11 anyone in the audience that wishes to speak on behalf 12 of this case? 13 Sir, would you like to come down, 14 please, to the podium. 15 And I'm going to ask, if you could, 16 please, turn the microphones a little into you. When 17 I was in the back they were having a little problem 18 hearing the residents talk, so if you could just -- 19 that would be great. Thank you very much. 20 MR. KEMP: My name is Paul Kemp. I 21 reside at 24742 Glenda, and my wife and I own the 22 property adjacent to Mr. Golembiewski on the north 23 side. 24 After Mr. Golembiewski's earlier
24 1 attempt at circumventing the Novi zoning ordinances, 2 he effectively turned his property into a stockade 3 and erected a six-foot high opaque fence. I don't 4 know if this is Fort Stanley, needs a mote and a 5 drawbridge. 6 But when you turned him down with his 7 earlier variance request, you told him that he should 8 go to his neighbors and enlist their support. Not 9 only has he not done this with his latest request, 10 but by erecting the fence he has figuratively thumbed 11 his nose at his neighbors and said I will do as I 12 please, I don't care what you think. 13 In addition to this, if you look at his 14 proposal, you will find that, according to his 15 figures, his house is seven feet longer on one side 16 than the other, which is then not even a 17 parallelogram. It looks more like a trapezoid, so I 18 find his figures in error. 19 Now, any support that I might have been 20 able to give Mr. Golembiewski for this request faded 21 and disappeared when he erected that fence. 22 So I am totally opposed to granting 23 this variance, and I thank you for your time. 24 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you. Anyone
25 1 else? 2 MS. PAWLAK: My name is Laurel Pawlak, 3 and I live at 24561 Glenda. I own the property 4 directly across the street from this gentleman, as 5 well as directly to the south of this across the 6 street, and I don't have a problem with it. 7 I think that some people are angry over 8 a fence that has nothing do with his garage. 9 He is trying to accommodate a 10 handicapped son he doesn't want to take out in the 11 weather. He's trying to have -- be able to take his 12 child, his son who's handicapped, inside the garage 13 so his son doesn't have to be out in a driveway in 14 the wintertime when he's trying to take him to and 15 from doctor appointments. 16 That's all this is really for. The 17 garage is just so his son will not have to be 18 outside, so he doesn't have to shovel a path to get 19 his son in and out of his own car because the car 20 won't fit in the existing garage. 21 I think people are angry over a fence. 22 I have nothing to do with that. I'm looking at just 23 that he's -- his son has suffered a terrible tragedy, 24 and I think it would be a tragedy if this council is
26 1 so insensitive that they would not allow him to take 2 his son in and out of his own car inside the comfort 3 of the garage. 4 I don't even know this man other than 5 this issue, but I -- and I'm just going from the 6 heart. If you had a handicapped son in a wheelchair, 7 would you not want them to grant your request so you 8 could take your son in or out of your van that won't 9 go in the garage the way it is now? 10 Thank you. 11 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you. Anyone 12 else in the audience? 13 (No response.) 14 MS. CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, there were 15 thirty-three notices sent; five approvals, no 16 objections. And I do have a request in the file here 17 to read this at the meeting. This is from Kim Burns 18 at 24560 Glenda. I'm going to -- it's a little hard 19 to read. 20 Give these people a break. Think about 21 what you'd do if you were in the same situation, 22 especially with limited resources to help your only 23 child. Neighbors are supposed to come together and 24 help each other in our community. Each objecting
27 1 person better think about what he or she would do if 2 this happened to them tomorrow, or anytime in the 3 future. 4 And the rest of the letters are 5 basically approvals. 6 Building Department? 7 MR. SAVEN: Just to point out that this 8 is an R-4 zoning district. The 30 foot setback 9 requirement has been met. This is strictly for the 10 sum total of the accessory structures on that 11 particular lot. It's for the 280 square foot. 12 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. Board members? 13 MEMBER REINKE: Question, if I could, 14 for the Building Department. 15 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Member Reinke. 16 MEMBER REINKE: Does the fence that has 17 been erected comply with the City ordinance? 18 MR. SAVEN: The fence requirements are 19 the six-foot high requirement for the fence. The 20 subdivision associations normally have certain 21 requirements for the type of fence. In terms of a 22 fence itself, a height requirement is the main issue, 23 and if it's six foot it does comply. 24 MEMBER REINKE: Thank you.
28 1 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Member Brennan. 2 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yeah. I wasn't 3 prepared to even discuss a fence. That's not before 4 us. 5 I'll ask the petitioner -- I think I 6 figured this out. On -- the north wall of your home, 7 existing home, is 60 feet. We're showing 57 on the 8 south, but I -- it looks to me like your garage is a 9 little bit set back, and maybe that's where that 10 three foot difference is? 11 MR. GOLEMBIEWSKI: I don't -- the 12 porch -- the porch is set back. 13 MEMBER BRENNAN: The porch sticks out a 14 little farther than the garage does? 15 MR. GOLEMBIEWSKI: The porch is set 16 back. The front of the house and then where the 17 front door is is set back pretty deep, and that goes 18 -- that's where the garage wall starts. 19 MEMBER BRENNAN: So the numbers that 20 are on your drawing are, indeed, correct? 21 MR. GOLEMBIEWSKI: Pretty much I'd say. 22 MEMBER BRENNAN: I have the same 23 general feeling. If -- by nature of this board, we 24 hear cases for variances based on need, and if this
29 1 isn't a case of need I don't know what is. 2 Sir, I'm prepared to support your 3 proposal as submitted. 4 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Member Gray. 5 MEMBER GRAY: My initial comments on 6 reviewing this submission are much better. Thank you 7 very much. It's a greatly reduced request, which is 8 what we encouraged. 9 Whether he met with his neighbors or 10 not, I'm sorry that you didn't if you didn't. 11 As several of the neighbors did bring 12 up last month, that the son was handicapped before he 13 bought this house, and so I'm not taking that into 14 consideration; however, I am taking into 15 consideration that you want additional garage space 16 for the need. And I'm not insensitive to your needs, 17 but I think because this is greatly reduced and you 18 do need the extra storage space, I'm prepared to 19 approve this variance because it is much, much less 20 than what was previously requested. 21 And having said that, I would be 22 willing to move, after your comments. 23 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you, Member 24 Gray. I would like to just make some comments on the
30 1 record. 2 I concur with Member Brennan, and I 3 have to point out that, obviously, this petitioner 4 must have worked with some neighbors because last 5 month we had two approvals and three objections, and 6 this month we have five approvals and one objection 7 present. So, obviously, you did listen to the board 8 and heed some guidance from us, or some advice if you 9 will. 10 And, so, therefore, I will also -- but 11 I wanted to put that on the record about the fact 12 that there are some approvals here, and there is a 13 big change from last month. 14 So you can go ahead now. Thank you. 15 MEMBER GRAY: Madam Chair, in the 16 matter of Case 03-081, I would move to approve the 17 variance requested as it meets the spirit and intent 18 of the ordinance and will not adversely impact 19 neighboring properties, and that it represents a 20 lesser variance than previously requested. 21 MEMBER BRENNAN: Support. 22 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: We have a motion and a 23 support. Any further discussion on the motion? 24 (No further discussion.)
31 1 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Seeing none, Sarah, 2 please call the roll. 3 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gray? 4 MEMBER GRAY: Yes. 5 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Brennan? 6 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yes. 7 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gronachan? 8 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes. 9 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Reinke? 10 MEMBER REINKE: Yes. 11 MS. MARCHIONI: Motion passes four to 12 zero. 13 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Your variance has been 14 granted. Please see the building department. 15 MR. GOLEMBIEWSKI: Thank you very much. 16 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you. 17 18 CASE NUMBER 03-083 19 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Case Number 03-083 20 filed by Allied Signs for Caribou Coffee at 21 47490 Grand River in the West Market Square. Allied 22 Signs is requesting a one sign variance to erect one 23 wall sign on the south elevation for Caribou Coffee. 24 Would you please state your names and
32 1 raise your right hand to be sworn in by our 2 secretary. 3 MEMBER BRENNAN: Name? 4 MR. SEEVER: Patrick Seever. 5 MS. KAISER: Kim Kaiser. 6 MEMBER BRENNAN: Do you both swear or 7 affirm that the information you're going to give us 8 tonight will be the truth? 9 THE WITNESSES: Yes. 10 MR. SEEVER: As I just said, my name is 11 Patrick. I'm actually from Allied, and tonight I'm 12 here representing Caribou Coffee. 13 We are requesting from the board 14 additional signage at the Caribou Coffee that is 15 located on Grand River Avenue. 16 What we are actually requesting is a 17 second sign on the south elevation of the building 18 that faces Grand River. This is being requested 19 because they feel that there's a lack of 20 identification for the Caribou. 21 The existing sign right now is located 22 on the west elevation, so traffic going westbound on 23 Grand River has no visibility to Caribou, as well as 24 northbound traffic traveling on Beck Road.
33 1 So basically we are asking for a second 2 sign on that south elevation in order to better 3 identify the store. 4 On that elevation there are also other 5 signs for other entrances on that side for the other 6 stores in the strip there, but Caribou is actually -- 7 the entrance is on the west elevation, but still 8 there is no visibility to that from the south side. 9 So we're asking for a variance for 10 26.28 square foot illuminated sign on the south 11 elevation. 12 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay, thank you. Is 13 there anyone in the audience that wishes to address 14 the board in regards to this case? 15 (No response.) 16 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Seeing none, there 17 were seven notices sent; no approvals, no objections. 18 Building Department? 19 MR. SAVEN: Just one question. The 20 signage, is it consistent with the other signs 21 throughout the complex? 22 MR. SEEVER: Yes, sir. It's actually 23 smaller even. 24 MR. SAVEN: Okay.
34 1 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. Board members? 2 MEMBER BRENNAN: Ma'am, are you with 3 Allied or with Caribou? 4 MS. KAISER: I'm with Caribou Coffee. 5 MEMBER BRENNAN: Do you have any 6 supporting evidence that you can talk to us about 7 that demonstrates that not having the sign out front 8 on the Grand River side- 9 MS. KAISER: (Interposing) I don't 10 have any of my customers with me, but I do have many 11 customers that come into our store that have 12 searched, trying to find us, you know, because we've 13 told them where we are, but since they can't see us 14 if they're coming westbound at all, you know, you 15 pass us. If you look in your rearview mirror you 16 might catch us, but they've gone through the whole 17 complex looking for us before. 18 MEMBER BRENNAN: I'll make note for the 19 record that their address is Grand River Avenue. 20 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. 21 MEMBER BRENNAN: So it's a destination 22 site, somebody's traveling on 23 Grand River looking for them. 24 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Anyone else? Member
35 1 Gray. 2 MEMBER GRAY: I don't have a problem 3 with the sign. It is smaller than the one that's on 4 the west facade, and I think for identification 5 purposes on Grand River, that it certainly could be 6 warranted. They've been there long enough that they 7 probably know what else they need, and it's not that 8 different from other cases on corners. 9 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: I concur as well. I 10 -- basically, when I was looking at this building, 11 because of the building shape, it's just a different 12 kind of shape. I know it's a square building, but it 13 really isn't when you're driving to it. With the 14 Blockbuster at the angle, it kind of throws you off 15 when you're coming down Grand River and you're 16 looking -- it just -- there's just nothing there. 17 I frequent your restaurant often, so I 18 do know where it is, but I -- when I was going down 19 Grand River during rush hour and looking for the 20 sign, I did see the sign, but I don't know how 21 anybody could have found it off of Grand River. 22 So I concur with the other members, 23 that because this is a Grand River address, and 24 because of the size and shape of the building as
36 1 well, that I don't see anything wrong with this 2 additional sign. 3 Having said that -- 4 MEMBER BRENNAN: I'll make a motion. 5 With respect to Case 03-083 for Caribou Coffee, I 6 would move petitioner's request for a second sign on 7 Grand River be granted for business identification 8 purposes. 9 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Second. Been moved 10 and seconded that this variance be granted. Is there 11 any further discussion on the request -- on the 12 motion? 13 (No further discussion.) 14 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Seeing none, Sarah, 15 would you please call the roll. 16 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Brennan? 17 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yes. 18 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gronachan? 19 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes. 20 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gray? 21 MEMBER GRAY: Yes. 22 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Reinke? 23 MEMBER REINKE: Yes. 24 MS. MARCHIONI: Motion passes four to
37 1 nothing. 2 MR. SEEVER: Thank you for your time. 3 MS. SEEVER: Thank you very much. 4 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you. 5 6 CASE NUMBER 03-088 7 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. Let's go to 8 Case Number 03-088 filed by Design Forum representing 9 Gander Mountain. This is tabled from last month. 10 Gander Mountain is requesting nine sign 11 variances to erect five wall signs at the Gander 12 Mountain store located at 43825 West Oaks Drive in 13 the West Oaks Shopping Center. 14 Gentlemen, would you like to come on 15 down? 16 UNIDENTIFIED: Esteemed members of 17 board, good evening. 18 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Good evening. Before 19 we get started, the gentleman that was here last 20 month doesn't need to be sworn in, but if you would 21 identify yourself and be sworn in by our secretary, 22 please. 23 MR. BLEDWORTH: My name is Chuck 24 Bledworth. I'm vice president of development with
38 1 Ramco Gershanson, owners of West Oaks I and West Oaks 2 II. 3 MEMBER BRENNAN: You want to raise your 4 right hand, sir? 5 Do you swear or affirm that everything 6 you're going to tell us is going to be the truth? 7 MR. BLEDWORTH: I do. 8 MEMBER BRENNAN: Thank you. 9 MR. BLEDWORTH: Good evening. I'm just 10 doing a brief introduction of what it is we're doing 11 at West Oaks I. We have a long history of working in 12 terms of retenanting and redeveloping West Oaks I and 13 II Centers with the City of Novi. It goes back many, 14 many years. 15 We replaced the Kroger and put in the Circuit City. 16 In '99 we added Joanne, ETC., in West Oaks II, and 17 expanded the Kohl's. In 2000 we redid the building 18 in front of West Oaks II with the Jared Jewelers, and 19 with the expanded Starbucks Coffee. And then last 20 year we added the Carabas Restaurant. 21 And tonight we're certainly very 22 excited because we're here with Gander Mountain, 23 who's a terrific retail concept, who's taking the 24 entire Kmart -- former Kmart building and putting in
39 1 an extremely unique use that is not only unique to 2 Novi but really to the entire metropolitan area. 3 It's a brand new concept. They're rolling out around 4 the country, and we think it's going to be -- make a 5 tremendous difference to our shopping centers and to 6 the customer interest and will be a terrific addition 7 to the City of Novi. 8 MR. BARRETT: Madam Chair, members of 9 the board, I'm Larry Barrett here representing Gander 10 Mountain to expand a little bit on what Chuck just 11 said. 12 One of the reasons I'm here is I'm 13 actually part of a development company that has 14 developed a couple -- two of these brand-new concept 15 stores for Gander Mountain. They're now in the 16 hundred thousand square foot range as opposed to 17 their earlier concept of 28 to 30,000 square feet, 18 and they are very exciting stores, and I'm here to 19 represent them and requesting sign variances on the 20 former Kmart Store. 21 I'm accompanied by Scott Sizney who's 22 the regional vice president for Gander Mountain, and 23 John Schiel (ph) who's the district manager from 24 Gander Mountain. These men will be the ones
40 1 responsible for making this store be as exciting as 2 the other ones that they've done so far and are the 3 ones that are -- have real hands-on concern with the 4 amount of signage and exposure that the store has. 5 We recognize that we're asking for a 6 lot of variances and ask that you be liberal from 7 them. 8 The store is about 11 -- liberal in 9 your approach to them. This is the last approval we 10 need prior to getting started with our remodeling. 11 Among the reasons we think we need the 12 number and size signs that we've applied for is that 13 the store is eleven hundred eight feet from Novi 14 Road, and if you've looked at the mockups -- and 15 they're the right ones this time -- you -- from Novi 16 Road you just see the top of that sign, and that 17 exposure is extremely, extremely important to us. So 18 we need to maximize the sign for customer 19 identification. 20 Also, Gander Mountain has established 21 its new identity. 22 Let me see If I can put this up and 23 tell you a little bit about that. 24 I have elevations of each side, but
41 1 these -- this new storefront has been developed. We 2 did two of them in Minnesota with the Gander Mountain 3 being eight feet by forty-one And then this goose is 4 in most -- in many communities that we've -- it's 5 part of our design element and part of our branding, 6 call it the logo if you will. Some communities treat 7 it as part of the sign, others have treated it as 8 part of the storefront design. 9 These are elevations of each of the 10 four walls -- or each of three walls that we're 11 asking to put signs on. 12 Let me just take them one by one. The 13 first sign that we're requesting a variance for is 14 the primary identification sign on the east side of 15 the wall. We are requesting a sign that is eight 16 feet by forty-one feet, or 328 square feet. 17 I took the liberty of going on your 18 website and reviewing some old meeting notes, and on 19 August 5th, 1997, the Zoning Board of Appeals granted 20 Kmart a variance to increase their sign from 356.25 21 square feet to 362.9 square feet. And that increase 22 was the result of increasing the height of the K from 23 seven feet six inches to ten feet. 24 Another note I made when I was looking
42 1 through your website -- which is very convenient by 2 the way -- on July 17th, 2001, the zoning board 3 approved a sign for Great Indoors which is 407 square 4 feet. 5 Again, this is our primary sign, and 6 it's our main concern to have that exposure to Novi 7 Road, to establish our identity. 8 We at least initially will have some 9 challenges relating to being -- to overcoming being 10 referred to as it's over at the old Kmart, so we 11 really want to get that identity out there as quickly 12 as possible. 13 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Can I interrupt here 14 one second? 15 MR. BARRETT: Sure. 16 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: I just want to let you 17 know that we have reviewed your packet, so we have 18 all these measurements and everything. It's not 19 really necessary to go over each one in terms of the 20 dimensions because we have those, and I take it this 21 month they are correct, as you so stated, and we've 22 been out to the site and looked at it. 23 So if there's anything additional that 24 you would like to add because, you know, we do have
43 1 nine here and we'd like to- 2 THE WITNESS: (Interposing) There is 3 something additional. I was here last week -- last 4 month and had the benefit of that. I just made kind 5 of a comparison with Galyan's, and I'd like to note 6 that Galyan's also requested a 407 square foot sign 7 on their east side, and at the request of the Zoning 8 Board of Appeals they reduced that to a hundred and 9 thirty-three square feet, and using the same logic 10 that I attempted to use on the east side, we would 11 be -- rather than a five foot sign, we've changed our 12 application to reduce it to a like amount to 90 13 square feet, or a three by thirty sign. 14 And because that easterly sign is so 15 important to us- 16 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: (Interposing) I'm 17 sorry. Which sign was that now? 18 Which exhibit are you talking about? 19 THE WITNESS: I'm talking about sign 20 number EG-3, I believe. EG-3, which is five by 21 thirty-two, or a hundred and sixty-one square feet. 22 We would propose to reduce that to ninety square 23 feet, or three by thirty approximately, which is 24 proportionate to what the Zoning Board of Appeals
44 1 asked the Great Indoors to reduce their easterly sign 2 for their secondary identification sign. 3 In addition to that, I'd like to point 4 out that since we were here last we took -- we 5 initially applied for ATV service on the back of the 6 building. We've taken service off that and now it's 7 only -- it says ATV, and that's for the benefit of 8 our customers who buy ATVs from us and need to have 9 them serviced. 10 And as to the sign on the west of the 11 building facing Great Indoors, we're prepared to 12 forego that sign, again, because we really want to 13 focus on the Novi Road and West Oaks Road exposure. 14 Those are the only differences from the 15 information you have before you I believe. 16 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. Is there anyone 17 in the audience that wishes to address the board in 18 regards to this matter? 19 (No response.) 20 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Seeing none, there 21 were 11 notices sent; no approvals, no objections. 22 Building Department? 23 MR. SAVEN: Just to recap, it's my 24 understanding that sign E is no longer before us?
45 1 MR. BARRETT: Sign which? 2 MR. SAVEN: Sign -- exhibit EG-5. 3 MR. BARRETT: That's no longer before 4 you. 5 MR. SAVEN: Thank you. And the issue 6 with sign D would be that it's only to read ATV, not 7 ATV service? 8 THE WITNESS: Correct. 9 MR. SAVEN: And what is that square 10 footage, sir? 11 MR. BARRETT: I think it's ten square 12 foot. 13 MR. SAVEN: It was mentioned that it 14 was ATV service, and now, as it's written, it's ATV. 15 I was wondering if the ten foot was still a factor. 16 MR. BARRETT: The ten is just the ATV. 17 MR. SAVEN: And sign C, you're looking 18 for a three by thirty foot sign, which is ninety 19 square foot, which would give you a fifteen square 20 foot variance; is that correct? 21 MR. BARRETT: Correct. 22 MR. SAVEN: Okay. 23 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you. Board 24 members? Member Brennan.
46 1 MEMBER BRENNAN: Well, we've got a lot 2 of talking to do. Last month when you were here we 3 did give you some guidance, and I didn't see a lot of 4 movement with the exception of a couple things noted 5 tonight. 6 For the record, we do not take into 7 affect -- we do not take into consideration other 8 cases, other sign cases, so I'm going to not regard 9 any of your comments about other cases. 10 Secondly, the main sign on the east 11 wall is large, sure. You want to be able to see it 12 from Novi Road. You can see it from Farmington 13 Hills. 14 It's interesting that it was pointed 15 out all of the other new businesses in West Oaks. 16 Recognize them all. They're all in front of the ZBA 17 for various variances. This seems to be pretty 18 common. 19 I got problems all the way down, and 20 I'll just leave it at that. 21 Typically, on multiple signs, we'll 22 start with one and get some input and work our way 23 through, but I've got some issues with this case. 24 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Member Gray.
47 1 MEMBER GRAY: I also have issues with 2 this case. I'm glad to see that you have scaled down 3 the sign on the north and that you're withdrawing the 4 request for the sign on the rear. 5 I think the sign on the front, the east 6 facade, is -- at least the part that says Gander 7 Mountain, is way too big. 8 I don't have a problem with the logo on 9 either of the signs, and I don't have any problem 10 with the ATV sign in the back. 11 I just think the Gander Mountain sign 12 is too big. 13 This will also be a destination place. 14 People will be finding out where you are, and you 15 will be able to see it from Novi Road if it's 16 smaller, and I would certainly encourage you to 17 reduce the size of Gander Mountain, or at least the 18 gander. 19 Thank you. 20 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you. 21 Member Reinke. 22 MEMBER REINKE: Well, I think I'm 23 echoing the comments made by previous board members. 24 I think until we get down to (inaudible) and start
48 1 dealing with each individual sign and look at it from 2 a realistic point from there as to what we're going 3 to do, because we're all making comments about this. 4 There are certain sections we have 5 problems with that we need to address and deal with. 6 MR. BARRETT: We're prepared to do 7 that. 8 MEMBER REINKE: So what -- Madam 9 Chairman, wherever you want to start. 10 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: All right. Thank you, 11 Member Reinke. I like we should start with the first 12 sign. 13 MR. BARRETT: I'd like to make one 14 comment. I didn't -- Council Member Brennan, I cited 15 former approvals I think because there's a section in 16 your website that encouraged that. I didn't mean it 17 to be inflammatory at all. I recognize this might be 18 an entirely different set of people here, so having 19 said that, let's go on. 20 MEMBER BRENNAN: I only bring it up 21 because it has been practice that we do not reference 22 other cases when taking into consideration your case. 23 Your case is special. It's Gander Mountain. It's 24 that building. It has nothing to do with any other
49 1 building, any other company. 2 MR. BARRETT: Understood. 3 MEMBER BRENNAN: We're dealing with 4 Gander Mountain. That's my point. I'm sorry if I'm 5 a little pissy. 6 MEMBER CHAIRWOMAN: All right. Let's 7 go with the first sign. You -- obviously 328 feet. 8 You've heard the board members here. Personally, I 9 liked last month's size better than this month's 10 size, and I don't have that -- I'm sure I do. 11 MR. BARRETT: The mockups are the 12 difference in the size primarily. I think the 13 applications are very similar. 14 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Wasn't that like a 15 hundred square feet less, if memory serves me 16 correct? 17 MEMBER GRAY: It was 11 square feet 18 less. 19 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: The one that was on 20 there was 11 square feet less? 21 MEMBER GRAY: It was 299. This one is 22 288. 23 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Last month the sign- 24 MEMBER REINKE: (Interposing) They had
50 1 the wrong size -- 2 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: They had the wrong 3 size sign up there. What size was that sign last 4 month? 5 MR. BARRETT: I don't know. 6 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: I thought it was 2 7 something. 8 MR. BARRETT: The mistake was made 9 because the architectural band to the sign company 10 that put the mockups, the wrong set of dimensions 11 from a different store, and so I'm not familiar with 12 that. 13 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: So what are you -- 14 what is your idea on sign A? 15 MR. BARRETT: Sign A is obviously not 16 acceptable in its present size. I have in front of 17 me a series of different size signs that Gander 18 Mountain has delivered, the smallest of which has 19 letters that are six feet six inches high and 20 33.42 -- I'm sorry. Six feet -- and 33.42 feet long, 21 which is 217 square feet. 22 And even though it is a smallest, 23 what's there -- what is there is eight feet high, so 24 that would be a reduction of one-and-a-half feet in
51 1 height. 2 MEMBER REINKE: 200- 3 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: (Interposing) 17. 4 MEMBER REINKE: You said that was how 5 many square feet? 6 MR. BARRETT: I'm sorry. It's six foot 7 six inches by 33.42 inches. 8 MEMBER BRENNAN: It's going to end up a 9 little more than 217. 10 MEMBER REINKE: I can live with that. 11 It's dropping it down in height of a foot-and-a-half, 12 which is, to me, falling in a realistic -- they have 13 somewhat of a disadvantage where they sit, but not to 14 the point where they need an eight-foot high letter 15 sign. Six-and-a-half is not intrusive but yet it's 16 big enough to draw identification, because that's 17 what they want the sign to do, and it would do an 18 adequate job of it. 19 MEMBER BRENNAN: I saw four nods. 20 Shall we go on? 21 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Yes, let's go on. 22 Let's go to sign B. That's Exhibit EG-2, east 23 elevation. Those are your logo signs. 24 MR. BARRETT: Correct.
52 1 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: And these are 2 78-and-a-half square foot, and you want two of them. 3 MR. BARRETT: Just one on the east 4 elevation. 5 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Just one. 6 MEMBER BRENNAN: One on the front. 7 MR. BARRETT: This being the east 8 elevation and this is what we're talking about. 9 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay, I'm sorry. 10 MEMBER BRENNAN: I think Sarah already 11 pointed out she didn't have a problem. I don't have 12 a problem with that. 13 MEMBER GRAY: You have a problem with 14 that? Lavern has a problem with that. 15 MEMBER REINKE: I think we're going 16 to -- going down with six-and-a-half foot letters, 17 now you got a ten foot circle there. I think an 18 eight foot is more than sufficient. 19 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: That makes sense. 20 MR. SAVEN: Madam Chair, may I ask a 21 question, please. In regards to this being a logo, 22 will that eight foot satisfy his condition? 23 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Well, we're going 24 there.
53 1 MR. SAVEN: I'm not sure if it is. I 2 don't want him coming back here again because it 3 doesn't work. 4 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Does the logo, if it 5 would be eight foot in height as opposed to ten feet, 6 would the logo still be the logo? 7 MR. BARRETT: Yes. 8 MR. SAVEN: Thank you. 9 MEMBER BRENNAN: With that dimensional 10 change, can you tell us what that square footage 11 would be if it's not 78.5 any longer? 12 MEMBER REINKE: It should be 20 percent 13 less than what's there. 14 MR. BARRETT: It's pie R squared, but I 15 don't know what pie is anymore. 16 MEMBER BRENNAN: Usually we need a 17 lawyer on this board. Tonight we need a 18 mathematician. 19 MR. SCHULTZ: 3.14. 20 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: 3.14. 20 percent is 21 what we're looking at. 22 MEMBER BRENNAN: Well, I think if we 23 just call that eight foot diameter. 24 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: You can work with
54 1 that? 2 MR. BARRETT: We can work with that. 3 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. Let's go to 4 sign C, which you've already said you would like this 5 reduced -- and this is on the north elevation -- to 6 90 square feet, and that's reduced from 161. 7 MEMBER BRENNAN: That's the second 8 rendering from the top? 9 MR. BARRETT: That is the north 10 elevation. 11 MEMBER REINKE: What is the new height 12 of letters going to be? 13 MR. BARRETT: Three feet. 14 MEMBER REINKE: I can live with that. 15 ATV sign, I have no problem with. 16 MEMBER BRENNAN: I don't either. 17 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Me either. 18 MEMBER REINKE: Is that a motion, Mr. 19 Brennan? 20 MEMBER BRENNAN: And the rest is gone. 21 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Yep. 22 MEMBER BRENNAN: Guess what? Not 23 painful after all. 24 MEMBER REINKE: If I may suggest, I
55 1 think we're better off if we do them one at a time. 2 MEMBER BRENNAN: I'll do that, if you 3 like. With respect to Case 03-088, Gander Mountain 4 sign cases, sign A, east elevation, approve a motion 5 for a 217 square foot sign. 6 MEMBER REINKE: With a maximum letter 7 height? 8 MEMBER BRENNAN: Of? 9 MEMBER REINKE: 6.6. 10 MEMBER BRENNAN: 6.6. 11 MR. BARRETT: The dimensions are six 12 feet six inches and -- 13 MEMBER BRENNAN: 33.4. 14 MR. BARRETT: 33.4. It's 401 inches. 15 I was dividing 33 and quarter inches by 12. 16 MEMBER BRENNAN: For the purpose of 17 store identification. 18 MEMBER REINKE: Support. 19 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: So we have a motion 20 and second. Any further discussion? Mr. Saven. 21 MR. SAVEN: I'm really sorry. There's 22 a couple issues that I really want to bring up, 23 because I don't want to be splitting hairs. This is 24 217 point some feet. 218 okay?
56 1 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: I was going to 2 suggest- 3 MEMBER BRENNAN: I already said it's 4 more than 217. 5 MR. SAVEN: But the other issue is that 6 each one of these signs, there is an additional sign 7 along with the variance, so as we go through these 8 things, please make sure we do that additional 9 signage, too, okay. 10 There's only one sign which is allowed 11 on a business, so anything above and beyond that. 12 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: I'm clear with that. 13 Sarah, please call the roll. 14 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Brennan? 15 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yes. 16 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Reinke? 17 MEMBER REINKE: Yes. 18 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gray? 19 MEMBER GRAY: Yes. 20 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gronachan? 21 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes. 22 MS. MARCHIONI: Motion passes four to 23 zero. 24 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay.
57 1 MEMBER BRENNAN: With respect to sign 2 B, this is the logo on the front, which would be a 3 second sign on this building, the petitioner's 4 request has been reduced to an eight foot diameter 5 sign. 6 MEMBER REINKE: Eight foot high 7 diameter sign. 8 Support. 9 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Motion's been made and 10 seconded. Any further discussion on the motion? 11 (No further discussion.) 12 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Seeing none, Sarah, 13 would you please call the roll. 14 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Brennan? 15 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yes. 16 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Reinke? 17 MEMBER REINKE: Yes. 18 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gray? 19 MEMBER GRAY: Yes. 20 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gronachan? 21 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes. 22 MS. MARCHIONI: Motion passes four to 23 nothing. 24 MEMBER BRENNAN: With respect to sign
58 1 C, petitioner has reduced his sign to a 90 square 2 foot, seeking a variance of 50 feet. 3 MEMBER REINKE: Maximum letter height, 4 three foot. 5 MEMBER BRENNAN: Three foot letter 6 height. This is an additional sign on the north 7 wall. 8 MEMBER REINKE: Right. Support. 9 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: So we have a motion 10 and a second. Any further discussions? 11 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yes, further 12 discussion. I just want, for the record, while 13 the -- while the east elevation is the primary entry, 14 there is considerable traffic on that northern road, 15 and that's kind of justification for the 16 identification on the north. I'll just add that to 17 the -- 18 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: So it's been moved, 19 seconded and amended. Any further discussion? 20 (No further discussion.) 21 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Sarah, please call the 22 roll. 23 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Brennan? 24 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yes.
59 1 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Reinke? 2 MEMBER REINKE: Yes. 3 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gray? 4 MEMBER GRAY: Yes. 5 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gronachan? 6 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes. 7 MS. MARCHIONI: Motion passes four to 8 nothing. 9 MEMBER BRENNAN: With respect to sign 10 D, which is the ATV -- wasn't it the first time 11 around, didn't it say ATV Service? 12 MR. BARRETT: Was ATV Service. It will 13 just say ATV now. 14 MEMBER BRENNAN: But it's ten square 15 feet? 16 MR. BARRETT: Correct. 17 MEMBER BRENNAN: Move that this sign be 18 approve for purpose of identification of a secondary 19 business. 20 MEMBER REINKE: Also a second sign. 21 MEMBER BRENNAN: Also the fourth sign 22 -- no, third sign. 23 MEMBER REINKE: Support. 24 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Motion's been made and
60 1 supported. Any further discussion? 2 (No further discussion.) 3 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Seeing none, Sarah, 4 would you please call the roll. 5 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Brennan? 6 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yes. 7 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Reinke? 8 MEMBER REINKE: Yes. 9 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gray? 10 MEMBER GRAY: Yes. 11 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gronachan? 12 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes. 13 MS. MARCHIONI: Motion passes four to 14 nothing. 15 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Sir, your variances 16 have been granted, be that as it may. Please see the 17 building department. 18 MR. BARRETT: Thank you very much. We 19 appreciate your cooperation and willingness to hear 20 me. 21 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Good luck to you. 22 The board's going to entertain a motion 23 to take a seven minute break, if no one seems to 24 oppose. We'll be back in seven minutes.
61 1 (A short recess was taken.) 2 CASE NUMBER 03-090 3 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: I'd like to call the 4 Zoning Board of Appeals meeting back to order, and we 5 will start with -- or we will resume with Case Number 6 03-090 filed by David Boyer -- is Mr. Boyer here -- 7 at 1191 West Lake Drive. Mr. Boyer is requesting a 8 6.5 foot rear yard setback variance for the 9 construction of an addition to his home. 10 Are you Mr. Boyer? 11 MR. BOYD: No, I'm not. I'm Joe Boyd. 12 I'm representing Dave Boyer, who's here. 13 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Are you an attorney? 14 MR. BOYD: No. I'm a builder. I'm the 15 one that's going to be performing the addition. 16 MEMBER BRENNAN: Would you raise your 17 right hand and be sworn. Do you swear or affirm that 18 everything you're going to tell us will be the truth? 19 MR. BOYD: Yes. 20 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay, go ahead. 21 MR. BOYD: We're here to get a variance 22 of 6.5 feet basically on the south side of this home. 23 You can see, there's 42 square foot on 24 each side of this home. It's -- the original home
62 1 was built with an odd shape. It doesn't allow any 2 use. We're going to add on both corners. It's only 3 the one corner that has a variance issue. 4 That's all. 5 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: That's it? Okay, 6 thank you. 7 Is there anyone in the audience that 8 wishes to address the board with regard to this case? 9 (No response.) 10 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Seeing none, there 11 were sixteen notices sent; three approvals, no 12 objections. 13 Building Department? 14 MR. SAVEN: I believe they're just 15 trying to square off the house a little bit. In 16 doing so, they're going (inaudible) a rear yard 17 setback. It is at an angle. But, anyhow, that's 18 basically what they're doing. They're not 19 increasing -- going beyond the building in itself. 20 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. Board members? 21 MEMBER REINKE: Madam Chairman, echoing 22 what Mr. Saven alluded to, it's basically squaring 23 the building off. It is only intruding into the 24 setback on the one corner of the property because of
63 1 the angle of the lake at that point. I see no 2 problem with the request as presented, and no 3 opposition from the neighbors. 4 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. Member Gray. 5 MEMBER GRAY: I would like point out 6 that most of us who live in that area consider the 7 lake to be the front yard, and it's still no 8 intrusion, so I'd like to make a motion, unless 9 anybody else has some comments to get on record at 10 this time, in the matter of Case 03-090 filed by 11 David Boyer, move to approve the variance requested 12 due to the unique lot size and configuration and the 13 proximity to the water. 14 MEMBER REINKE: Support. 15 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: There's been a motion 16 and a second. Is there any further discussion on the 17 motion? 18 (No further discussion.) 19 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Seeing none, Sarah, 20 would you please call the roll. 21 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gray? 22 MEMBER GRAY: Yes. 23 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Reinke? 24 MEMBER REINKE: Yes.
64 1 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Brennan? 2 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yes. 3 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gronachan? 4 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes. 5 MS. MARCHIONI: Motion passes four to 6 nothing. 7 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you. 8 MR. BOYD: Thank you. 9 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you. 10 11 CASE NUMBER 03-091 12 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Next case is 03-091 13 filed by Planet Neon representing Hagopian World of 14 Rugs at 43223 Twelve Mile Road. They're requesting 15 one sign variance to erect a luminated wall sign to 16 be located on Twelve Mile Road for Hagopian World of 17 Rugs. 18 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Good evening. 19 MR. HAGOPIAN: Good evening. My name 20 is Edgar Hagopian representing Hagopian World of 21 Rugs. 22 MEMBER BRENNAN: Would you raise your 23 right a hand and be sworn, please. Do you swear or 24 affirm that everything you're going to tell us is the
65 1 truth? 2 MR. HAGOPIAN: Yes, I do. I come 3 before this board because we're experiencing some 4 unique hardships. I think my son wrote a letter to 5 the board last month -- I have to -- and expressed 6 our problems quite correctly. 7 Fortunately, we've been at this 8 location for some four-and-a-half years, and we 9 occupied the lower level of the showroom, and at that 10 time we had requested some special variances on the 11 sign because we needed exposure both to Twelve Mile 12 Road and to the mall, and were granted those waivers. 13 However, subsequent to that, we leased 14 the lower level to a furniture showroom to a 15 furniture showroom, Boshe Bobua (ph), and at that 16 time we removed the Hagopian sign facing the mall, 17 and since then people have assumed that we have gone 18 out of business or changed our location. 19 In the last two weeks, my son gathered 20 a hundred and five names on a petition testifying to 21 that affect, that affect rather, and I have those 22 signatures and names and addresses of people that 23 have experienced difficulty in finding our showroom 24 or -- and these are essentially the people that have
66 1 ultimately found us. Those that have assumed that we 2 weren't there anymore just -- we don't know what 3 quantity of people passed us up. 4 Unfortunately, during all this period, 5 we went through the hardship of 6 Twelve Mile construction, and we're the only retailer 7 on Twelve Mile Road during that construction period 8 that had Twelve Mile access that suffered from that, 9 even with some signing. We were unable to get 10 access. It was extremely difficult. 11 We were originally granted three signs, 12 and we would like to request a sign, as we submitted 13 to the board, for a sign facing the mall as 14 represented. 15 And when one looks at the sign -- or 16 one looks at the building from that direction, 17 basically there's no other sign that would be 18 visible, no other Hagopian sign that would be 19 visible, from the mall respectfully. 20 I think, you know, we've gone through 21 some tremendous hardships in that location. 22 Unfortunately, not all of them concerning, you 23 know -- some of them were temporary. 24 Last year was a tough year from an
67 1 economic standpoint for retailers. I don't have to 2 tell you that. Last year was a tough year with 3 Twelve Mile construction. I don't have to tell you 4 that. And then further complicated was the fact that 5 we had no mall exposure, it became a extremely tough 6 year. 7 So we're asking you to -- I understand 8 that those other two problems are going to disappear 9 and -- fortunately, and we're left with the one which 10 is still an ongoing problem, and we're asking for 11 your very careful consideration of our request. 12 UNIDENTIFIED: My name is (inaudible). 13 I'm with Planet Neon. I'm relatively new to the 14 area. I was asked to come out and take a look at 15 this location. 16 And, I, myself had difficulty locating 17 it, and I did come up to the mall Ring Road access 18 area. And I would like to see, you know, the board 19 approve the sign that they have requested here 20 tonight. 21 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. Is there anyone 22 in the audience that wishes to make comment in 23 regards to this case? 24 (No response.)
68 1 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Seeing none, there 2 were eight notices sent; and one approval from Hotel 3 Baronet, and there are a hundred and ten -- pretty 4 close to a hundred and ten signatures. And just for 5 the board's information, it says: Dear Hagopian 6 customer, Hagopian World of Rugs is going before the 7 City of Novi to request additional signage. We would 8 appreciate your signature support, our efforts for 9 additional signage if you've experienced difficulty 10 finding our showroom, thought we've moved or closed, 11 any other inconvenience finding us. And there are 12 close to a hundred and ten. So I will verify that 13 for the record. 14 Building Department? 15 MR. SAVEN: Just to point out that 16 there are two entrances to that building, one being 17 Ring Road and also Twelve Mile Road, and the 18 building, it has unusual elevations as it's basically 19 like a walkout type of scenario, and access can be 20 off the Ring Road as well as Twelve. 21 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Board members? It's 22 only you on this side. What can I say. 23 MEMBER BRENNAN: Well, I think this is 24 one of the first times that I've been moved from a
69 1 very strong opinion, because when I made that Ring 2 Road trip it didn't seem to me that you could see 3 this proposed sign very well. You're making a the 4 lot of turns on a windy road, and you've only got 5 just a brief second to see that up there. 6 However, I am moved by the evidence 7 that there are customers, and I applaud you for 8 making that effort to demonstrate that you have had 9 customers that have had a difficult time. 10 MR. HAGOPIAN: This is a two-week 11 period by the way. 12 MEMBER BRENNAN: So I guess I'm 13 persuaded that maybe some signage is on there. If 14 they're looking for you, and they only need to see 15 Hagopian, could you live without the bottom runner? 16 MR. HAGOPIAN: The bottom what? 17 MEMBER BRENNAN: The bottom run, World 18 of Rugs. It's just a business identification sign, 19 if we could reduce the overall size, leave the 20 Hagopian at thirty inches by sixteen foot six inches. 21 MR. HAGOPIAN: It's our logo. You 22 know, I don't -- 23 MEMBER BRENNAN: But you're looking for 24 your store identification, and it's just something
70 1 I'm throwing out there just as a thought. 2 You know, we -- I understand you have a 3 need. You've demonstrated the need. I'm trying to 4 discuss whether we can have a minimal variance 5 request by still giving you what you want. 6 We minimize the variance request -- 7 hold on a second -- and that is something that we're 8 pledged and obligated to do as board members, is to 9 minimize variances. When we decide or consider that 10 we're going to grant one, we try to make it as least 11 a variance request. 12 That's my comments. 13 MR. HAGOPIAN: It's not the question, 14 is there? 15 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Anybody else? 16 MEMBER BRENNAN: At this point it's 17 board member comments. 18 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Member Reinke. 19 MEMBER REINKE: I started out 20 negatively in my -- as Mr. Brennan had alluded to. 21 I'm somewhat persuaded by the presentation, but I 22 agree wholeheartedly with Mr. Brennan, that it is a 23 business identification and there doesn't need to be 24 an advertising sign, so I think the word Hagopian
71 1 would be sufficient to direct people to your store. 2 MEMBER GRAY: Ditto. 3 MEMBER BRENNAN: I had another note 4 that I had written, just for the sake -- it is -- if 5 somebody was looking Hagopian up in the 6 Yellow Pages and had never been there, the address 7 says Grand River -- or, pardon me, the address says 8 Twelve Mile. It doesn't say anything about being in 9 West Oaks, come in through Ring Road of find us on 10 Ring Road, so the destination is Grand River, and 11 they have a tough identification on Grand River -- 12 Twelve Mile. 13 MEMBER GRAY: As opposed to the mall. 14 MEMBER BRENNAN: But I am moved -- like 15 I said, I am moved that, perhaps, there is a need 16 here. I just wondered whether it could be minimized. 17 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: I -- am tongue tied 18 tonight. I will make a couple of comments. Driving 19 through there it is very difficult. I concur with 20 Member Brennan in terms of coming through the back, 21 with this corner, plus the construction on Twelve 22 Mile, I'm sure it didn't help. When you drive by 23 it's hard to get in. Coming up Novi Road you 24 think -- and you're approaching Twelve Mile, you
72 1 think you can turn in and you can't, so it's a 2 confusing entrance to say the least, and I don't know 3 that that does not contribute to the poor turnout of 4 clients so to speak. 5 I'm torn. I understand that Hagopian 6 is, you know, the World of Rugs, but I tend to think 7 that if people are looking for you, and as long as 8 they can identify your building and get focused, 9 especially for where the sign is going to be, I tend 10 to agree that less is better, and if there was 11 something we could do with the size -- but not so 12 much the letters, because you really can't read it 13 from coming back there. 14 MEMBER BRENNAN: I think the letters 15 have to be like they are. 16 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: In order to do any 17 good. 18 MEMBER BRENNAN: Although you only see 19 it going one way, not the other way. 20 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: It's such a difficult 21 corner. Okay. 22 Mr. Hagopian, what do you have to -- 23 you had some comments while the board members were 24 talking.
73 1 MR. HAGOPIAN: Well, yeah. Obviously, 2 you know, it's our name. It's like saying Edgar 3 instead of Edgar Hagopian. I know a lot of people 4 know me by Edgar. It's an unusual name. A lot of 5 people in the theatrical business have one name, and 6 Madonna is an example. 7 Hagopian is known, you know. We're 8 established, 60 some years in this community, but we 9 have a cleaning company. My brother's a competitor. 10 He's a cleaner. 11 I don't know what to say. I mean, it's 12 our logo. We've never used our name without our 13 logo, so you're asking me to make a judgement as to 14 whether or not I can live without it. I don't know 15 the answer to that question. 16 If you're giving me the option of a 17 smaller sign with the bottom tag or a larger sign 18 without it -- is that the option you're giving me? 19 I don't know. 20 MEMBER BRENNAN: No. It wasn't my 21 option. The third option was to leave the Hagopian 22 as it is. I think you can pick that up. If you're 23 looking up there and you got to look up, up in that 24 upper left-hand corner, you're making -- navigating
74 1 this road like this, but if you think that that's 2 going to help people identify -- finding your store 3 or coming to see you anyways, they know what Hagopian 4 is. They're shopping for rugs. I don't think you 5 need that lower rung. 6 That was my point. I think you heard 7 three other people say the same thing. 8 MR. HAGOPIAN: Well, I heard them. I'm 9 not going to sit here and argue with you people. You 10 know your business, I know my business. 11 I just -- if Sears Roebuck still 12 retained the name Roebuck, would you ask them to drop 13 that just because Sears would identify the store just 14 as well as Sears Roebuck? I don't know the answer to 15 that question. 16 MEMBER BRENNAN: I think they did drop 17 Roebuck. 18 MR. HAGOPIAN: They did because they're 19 no longer part of the name. 20 I can't answer that question honestly. 21 All I can say is there isn't a single 22 document that exists in our company without the name 23 Hagopian World of Rugs on it. 24 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Why don't you take a
75 1 moment then at this point. You seem to be not clear 2 on this, and I don't want to push something that 3 you're not going to be happy with or vote against 4 this. 5 MR. HAGOPIAN: It's not what we asked 6 for. 7 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Right. Well- 8 MR. HAGOPIAN: (Interposing) And to be 9 honest -- to be perfectly honest, I'm here 10 representing my son who was supposed to be here and, 11 unfortunately, was unable to. 12 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Well, and that was why 13 -- what I was leading to. 14 I don't have -- I could suggest this to 15 you, it would have to be your call, if you would like 16 table this to next month. 17 MR. HAGOPIAN: I'd prefer not to. 18 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: You prefer not to 19 table it? 20 MR. HAGOPIAN: No. This is a hardship 21 for us. I'd prefer not to table it because, to be 22 honest, this is a hardship for us, and it is one that 23 even surprised us, because when my son removed the 24 Hagopian sign he assumed that people, you know,
76 1 would -- you know, we put signs on the doors and 2 people would make that judgement, but apparently they 3 haven't. 4 And I'm not there every day, he is. 5 But -- and these hundred and five signatures he 6 obtained in two-weeks time. He decided that he'd ask 7 his customers, you know, what kind of difficulty, and 8 he was amazed himself at the problems. 9 So we attributed the drop in business 10 to road construction and the economy and, you know, 11 it's really a factor of several things, to be honest, 12 and this signage problem is a serious problem for us. 13 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: And I think that you 14 -- I'm sorry. Excuse me one second. I think you did 15 properly identify what your problem is, and you did 16 indicate to the board clearly what the need is. 17 However, my other suggestion would be 18 because you have the sign person with you this 19 evening, perhaps what we could do is take a few 20 minutes and relook at the sign and see if there's 21 another option, knowing that this board is looking at 22 a smaller sign possibly, either being with Hagopian 23 and dropping the World of Rugs, or Hagopian World of 24 Rugs in a smaller-
77 1 MR. HAGOPIAN: (Interposing) Well, I 2 asked if that's the option you're giving me. There's 3 no contest, because I think I'd rather have the 4 larger Hagopian, if that's the kind -- 5 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: No. I'm -- the only 6 thing I'm suggesting is that you take a minute, think 7 about this, we can move onto another case, the two of 8 you can talk this through and then you can come back 9 after the next case, unless you just want us to go 10 with it, or you're ready to accept Hagopian. 11 MR. HAGOPIAN: The question is are you 12 giving me this option of, in other words, a smaller 13 sign that says Hagopian World of Rugs- 14 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: (Interposing) Yes. 15 MR. HAGOPIAN: -or the size of the sign 16 as submitted just saying Hagopian? 17 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: That's correct. 18 MR. HAGOPIAN: That's the option you're 19 giving me? 20 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Well, those are my two 21 suggestions at this point, that you two- 22 MR. HAGOPIAN: (Interposing) You're 23 telling me you won't pass the plan as presented; is 24 that what you're saying?
78 1 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: That's correct. 2 MEMBER GRAY: It was my understanding 3 that Mr. Brennan's comment, and the way I understood 4 it, the way I would support it is, the size Hagopian 5 stays the same, it does not increase by deleting 6 World of Rugs. Is that what your intent was, 7 Mr. Brennan? 8 MEMBER BRENNAN: My suggestion was 9 leaving Hagopian as it's shown on the mockup but 10 eliminating the World of Rugs. 11 MEMBER GRAY: Okay. What I'm 12 understanding Mr. Hagopian is he going to get the 45 13 inches in Hagopian? 14 MEMBER BRENNAN: No. It would be a 48 15 square foot sign. 16 MEMBER GRAY: And I want to make that 17 clear, that no, the option is not going to make 18 Hagopian larger but to leave it the same size but 19 without World of Rugs? 20 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: I think he understood 21 it. 22 MR. HAGOPIAN: I understand that. 23 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: No, he understood. 24 MR. HAGOPIAN: If that's my options, I
79 1 don't -- it's really -- I don't have to think about 2 it. I'd rather have the larger Hagopian. 3 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: You would rather go 4 with just the one word, Hagopian, and leave off- 5 MR. HAGOPIAN: (Interposing) Yeah. 6 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. 7 MR. HAGOPIAN: I mean, that's the 8 choice you're giving me. I assume I have to make a 9 choice between those two options, so -- 10 MEMBER REINKE: Is that your motion, 11 Mr. Brennan? 12 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yeah. I'll make a 13 motion that the Case 03-091, the petitioner's request 14 for a sign on the mall side be approved, modified as 15 such that Hagopian will be 30-inch letters in tall, 16 sixteen feet by six inches in width, and World of 17 Rugs will be eliminated from the script. 18 MEMBER REINKE: Support. 19 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: The motion's been made 20 and seconded. Is there any further discussion? 21 (No further discussion.) 22 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Seeing none, Sarah, 23 would you please call the roll. 24 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Brennan?
80 1 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yes. 2 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Reinke? 3 MEMBER REINKE: Yes. 4 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gray? 5 MEMBER GRAY: Yes. 6 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gronachan? 7 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes. 8 MS. MARCHIONI: Motion passes four to 9 zero. 10 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you. 11 MR. HAGOPIAN: Thank you. 12 13 CASE NUMBER 03-092 14 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. Moving right 15 along to Case Number 03-092 filed by Mozart Homes of 16 Brookhaven subdivision. Paul Hedemark of Mozart 17 Homes is requesting one sign variance to erect an 18 entranceway sign to be located at the front entrance 19 of Brookhaven subdivision. This project is located 20 on the north side of Ten Mile and east of Novi Road. 21 And are you Mr. Hedemark? 22 MR. HEDEMARK: I am Paul Hedemark. 23 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Could you please raise 24 your right hand and be sworn in by our secretary.
81 1 MEMBER BRENNAN: Do you swear or affirm 2 that the information you're going to give us will be 3 the truth? 4 MR. HEDEMARK: Yes. 5 MEMBER BRENNAN: Thank you. 6 MR. HEDEMARK: As explained in the 7 agenda, we are requesting a variance for one sign for 8 subdivision identification. 9 The one -- the ordinance allows one 10 sign to be placed at the outside -- permanent sign 11 placed at the outside of the subdivision that can be 12 up to twenty-four square feet in size. 13 We have a brick monument on both sides 14 of the entryway, and we would like to put one small 15 sign on each side to identify the subdivision, which 16 would be -- the two signs combined would total three 17 square feet. 18 So that is what, one-eighth of the size 19 of the allowance by the ordinance. 20 One of the two signs has already been 21 approved, so we need a variance to put the other 22 small sign up, and all the other requirements would 23 meet height and placement of the sign. 24 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Is there anyone in the
82 1 audience that wishes to address the board in regards 2 to this case? 3 (No response.) 4 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Seeing none, there 5 were seventy-three notices sent; one approval, two 6 letters returned. David Leone (ph) that lives at 7 24548 Parkridge Court approved. 8 Building Department? 9 MR. SAVEN: This is an entryway sign. 10 There's normally two entryway walls that are 11 associated with entryways. I think they're just 12 trying to put two signs, one on each side, for 13 identification purposes. 14 MEMBER REINKE: Support. 15 MR. SAVEN: I didn't mean it to be. 16 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Member Reinke, was 17 that a motion? 18 MEMBER REINKE: Yes. 19 MEMBER GRAY: I'll support it, whatever 20 it was. 21 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Can we do it that 22 quickly? 23 MEMBER GRAY: Sure. 24 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay, cool. So we
83 1 have a motion and a second. Is there any further 2 discussion on the motion? 3 (No further discussion.) 4 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Seeing none, Sarah, 5 would you please call the roll. 6 MS. MARCHIONI: Sorry. Can you restate 7 the motion? 8 MR. SAVEN: Oh, no you don't. 9 MEMBER REINKE: Additional entryway 10 subdivision identification sign. Normally we have 11 two identifications. The angle of it precludes 12 identification going in the opposite direction of the 13 sign, and the signage size is minimal. 14 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Reinke? 15 MEMBER REINKE: Yes. 16 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gray? 17 MEMBER GRAY: Yes. 18 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Brennan? 19 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yes. 20 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gronachan? 21 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes. 22 MS. MARCHIONI: Motion passes four to 23 nothing. 24 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Your variance has been
84 1 granted. Please see the building department. 2 3 4 5 CASE NUMBER 03-094 6 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Moving right along, 7 we're going to Case 03-094 filed by 8 Carmen Matthews at 1367 East Lake Drive, is 9 requesting a hundred and thirty square foot variance 10 for the construction of a l80 square foot detached 11 accessory structure to be located at the residence on 12 East Lake Drive. 13 Are you Carmen? 14 MS. MATTHEWS: I'm Carmen Matthews. 15 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Raise your right hand. 16 MEMBER BRENNAN: Do you want to raise 17 your right hand, please. Do you swear or affirm that 18 everything you're going to tell us is the truth? 19 MS. MATTHEWS: I do. 20 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. Go ahead. 21 MS. MATTHEWS: Well, my husband and I 22 applied for this shed that we need to build in the 23 backyard. The house that we purchased has no 24 basement, so there is a need of storage. There is an
85 1 attached garage to the house, but we have three 2 vehicles, and we don't know how to switch them around 3 to fit in the garage. And there is a need for the 4 lawn mower for -- it's a lake lot, and the 5 properties -- there is a lot of patio furniture and 6 other things that need to be stored for the winter, 7 and it's a great need of storage. 8 So we would like to purchase a kit 9 that's already ready to put together. And it's going 10 to be a good looking shed. 11 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. Is there anyone 12 in the audience that wishes to make any comment in 13 regards to this case? 14 (No response.) 15 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Seeing none, there 16 were forty-one notices sent; no approvals, no 17 objections, and two letters were returned. 18 MS. MATTHEWS: And I have a letter from 19 the association. 20 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. Could you bring 21 that up. I stand corrected, and the homeowner's 22 association letter of approval. Thank you. 23 Building Department? 24 MR. SAVEN: Yeah. I had a couple
86 1 inquiries with regards to the shed, and it was 2 unclear to them as to what they were attempting to 3 do. I guess they thought you were going to put up 4 another 850 square foot, but after I showed them what 5 was happening- 6 MS. MATTHEWS: (Interposing) It's a 7 ten by eighteen. 8 MR. SAVEN: Right. I did show them 9 what you were proposing, and they appeared not to 10 have a problem with this. 11 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Board members? Member 12 Gray. 13 MEMBER GRAY: How far from the property 14 line are you going to put the shed? 15 MS. MATTHEWS: We will put it as far as 16 the building department will approve. From what we 17 understood, was six feet from the property line. 18 MEMBER GRAY: Okay. That's what I was 19 trying to get at. I was trying to make sure that you 20 would have adequate room around it to maintain it. 21 MS. MATTHEWS: Yes. The lot -- the 22 property allows that. 23 MEMBER GRAY: Okay. I don't have any 24 problem with it. That's a motion.
87 1 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Is that a motion? 2 MEMBER REINKE: Support. 3 MEMBER GRAY: Move in the case -- 4 matter of Case 03-094, move to approve the variance 5 requested due to need for storage on this lot. 6 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: It's been moved and 7 approved. Any further discussion? 8 (No further discussion.) 9 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Sarah, would you 10 please call the roll. 11 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gray? 12 MEMBER GRAY: Yes. 13 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Reinke? 14 MEMBER REINKE: Yes. 15 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Brennan? 16 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yes. 17 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gronachan? 18 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes. 19 MS. MARCHIONI: Motion passes four to 20 nothing. 21 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Your variance has been 22 granted. Please see the building department. 23 MS. MATTHEWS: Thank you very much. 24
88 1 CASE NUMBER 03-095 2 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Case Number 03-095 3 by -- filed by Michael Camerella at 204 Faywood. 4 Mr. Camerella is requesting a side yard setback 5 variance of 6.18 feet for the construction of an 6 addition to an existing home. 7 Are you he? 8 MR. CAMERELLA: Yes, I am. 9 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Would you raise your 10 right hand and please be sworn in by our secretary. 11 MEMBER BRENNAN: Do you swear or affirm 12 that everything you're going to tell us is the truth? 13 MR. CAMERELLA: Yes, I do. I'm 14 requesting a side yard setback variance of 6.18 feet 15 on the west side of my property for the construction 16 of a bathroom to square off the back side of my 17 house. 18 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Is there anyone in the 19 audience that wishes to address the board? Is that a 20 yes? Okay. You need to come down, please. 21 MS. JOHNSON: My name is Theresa 22 Johnson. I'm representing my aunt, Gensie Reynolds. 23 She lives at 208 Faywood, which is right next door. 24 She's lived in her house for 30 years.
89 1 In June of 2000 the board approved a variance for the 2 house directly to the west of her at 214 Faywood. 3 This caused their house to be remodeled inches away 4 from the property line. Currently there is 15 feet 5 between her house and the one to the west, just 6 enough for her driveway. 7 There is seven feet ten inches between 8 her house and the one directly to the east, the one 9 asking for the variance. Approximately halfway 10 between that is the property line. 11 We believe that if the variance was 12 lessened it would make the houses seem too close 13 together. Her view from her back door would be a 14 house instead of a nice green lawn. 15 The neighbor at 204 Faywood has two 16 lots. The house is on one lot and the lawn is on the 17 other. He could easily build on the other side of 18 his house and not make anyone feel uncomfortable. 19 Not to mention that the last time this 20 neighbor remodeled, he kept my aunt up until 3:00 21 a.m. several nights a week over several weeks playing 22 his music loudly and hammering most of the night. 23 She has health problems that are 24 worsened by stress, and I hope this council takes all
90 1 of this into consideration when making its decision. 2 We hope you make a decision not to approve the 3 variance. 4 And I do have photos. This photo is 5 the west side of her house. It shows that the 6 remodel that was approved in June of 2000 is to the 7 left of the picture. It shows that the house is 8 built inches away from the property line. Part of 9 the fence was taken down so that they could do the 10 foundation. They had to take the fence down to do 11 the foundation. 12 This is the other side of her house, 13 which is my aunt's house and 204 Faywood. It shows 14 that there is a fence halfway between the two houses. 15 This would be a back view showing that 16 the fence does go directly between them. 17 This is her view of her back door, and 18 if you look to the air, you will see that there are 19 several lines that will have to be moved. Power 20 lines, cable lines and phone lines will all have to 21 be put on a pole and moved over there. 22 This also shows 204 Faywood, showing 23 that they do have an extra lot and they could build 24 on the other side of their house without any problem.
91 1 And this shows where they're wanting to 2 extend their house from, that small room. 3 That's it. 4 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Anyone else? 5 (No response.) 6 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: There were forty-seven 7 notices sent; one approval, one objection. The 8 objection was from John Wright at 207 Rexton. House 9 doesn't look good right next to the property line. I 10 think the ordinance should stand. 11 Building Department? 12 MR. SAVEN: Only that they're 13 continuing the line on the side of the house and in 14 conjunction with the addition. It's not encroaching 15 into that existing setback requirement. 16 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Board members? 17 MEMBER BRENNAN: I'd ask -- I'd like to 18 ask Michael's thoughts of what was just presented. 19 MR. CAMERELLA: I -- the existing 20 bathroom is what we're going to do, is extend and 21 square the house off. As you see, it's a shed 22 bathroom back there, so it was put on before I ever 23 owned the home. We're not going to be doing anything 24 different than just putting a new tub in, a toilet,
92 1 and square the back of the house off so we can have a 2 little more room back there. 3 And as for any inconsideration for some 4 remodeling I did to dress the house up, painting and 5 other issues, if there was ever a problem, I 6 apologize to my neighbors for that. It's the first 7 I've ever heard of it, and that would be in 8 consideration, if I do any remodeling, which I've 9 spoken with my neighbor and explained to her that it 10 will be going on in the wintertime and there's 11 minimum times I can work at, and construction will be 12 done during the week and won't exceed past the 13 evening or anything that would keep her up. 14 MEMBER BRENNAN: Thanks. 15 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Member Gray. 16 MEMBER GRAY: How big is the addition 17 you're proposing? 18 MR. CAMERELLA: It is 12 by 24. 19 MEMBER BRENNAN: So that little piece 20 that's sticking out right now, that comes off? 21 MR. CAMERELLA: Yes, that will be 22 removed. New foundation, house will be squared, same 23 roof line, no bumpouts on the sides. 24 MEMBER GRAY: Is it all going to be a
93 1 bathroom or is there going to be something else, part 2 of a bathroom and part- 3 MR. CAMERELLA: (Interposing) Yes. It 4 will be part bathroom, and it will be a breezeway 5 with closets on both sides of the door as you enter 6 the back door, which will extend out of the back of 7 the house for additional storage. 8 MEMBER GRAY: Okay. And I realize what 9 you're doing is just following the same property 10 line, but is there any possible way you could jog 11 that over to the side away from your neighbor? 12 And I'm asking a lot, but I'm asking. 13 MR. CAMERELLA: In consideration with 14 the roof lines and making everything work and look 15 presentable, I think, my opinion, personally, that 16 keep the body lines of the house the same all the way 17 down would be in the best interest and would result 18 in no inside corners or roof offsets. 19 MEMBER BRENNAN: Sarah, wouldn't that 20 also mess up the driveway and the garage? 21 MEMBER GRAY: Well -- and I'm looking 22 at that, but I'm trying to find some alternative that 23 would help appease the neighbor, understanding that 24 it would just go straight back.
94 1 That sticks out how far now? 2 MR. CAMERELLA: It's approximately 3 nine-and-a-half feet. 4 MEMBER GRAY: Nine-and-a-half feet. I 5 realize it's only going to go back another two, 6 two-and-a-half feet. 7 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yeah, two-and-a-half 8 feet. 9 MEMBER GRAY: It's not going to block 10 too much of the view, but -- 11 MEMBER REINKE: What was the reason for 12 the second objection? 13 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: House doesn't look 14 good right next to the property line. 15 MEMBER REINKE: Thank you. 16 MEMBER BRENNAN: Madam Chair? 17 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Yes. 18 MEMBER BRENNAN: We've been pretty 19 consistent with additions in a situation like this. 20 I'm troubled that you've got some trouble or problems 21 with the neighbor, and I trust Mr. Camerella will do 22 a better job of this renovation. 23 I'm not compelled to buy into the case 24 that the view of the backyard is going to be
95 1 obstructed when we're looking at about another 2 two-and-a-half feet verse what's already there. 3 So my -- I guess I'm compelled to 4 support the petitioner. 5 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: I'm following the same 6 way. I almost think it's going to be an improvement. 7 It's going to improve the back of the house. 8 You've sat here all night and listened 9 to us talk to neighbors and to petitioners, and I 10 urge you that you have an elderly neighbor next door 11 to you, that you go and talk to her and sincerely 12 honor those hours and requests. That disturbs me, 13 so -- but if you've got good neighbors it's better 14 than having a great fence. 15 MR. CAMERELLA: Sure. 16 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: So, you know -- I'm -- 17 in lieu of a senior citizen living next door that has 18 to deal with loud music and hammering at 3:00 in the 19 morning, that upsets me more. 20 On the other side, to the resident, 21 this is going to actually improve the back of the 22 house. It's going to be a better looking look, when 23 you do look out your back door, to look at it, and I 24 agree with Mr. -- Member Brennan, that I don't know
96 1 that it's going to be that far out protruding. We're 2 talking maybe two feet, two something feet, that it's 3 going to come out where you may not even notice it. 4 It may be an improvement. 5 And I -- so I would support this 6 request based on the lot configuration as well, the 7 location of the house. And also to address the 8 objection letter from the other resident, that it 9 doesn't look good on the property line. This is just 10 following the line of the house. 11 MEMBER GRAY: This is another situation 12 in a very old area of the city where the houses -- a 13 lot of the houses were built without any benefit of 14 permits years and years and years ago. 15 And while I can certainly appreciate 16 your neighbors' concerns, I realize logically that 17 there really isn't much of a choice on this to -- 18 other than squaring up the house. 19 But I had to ask the question, and I 20 hope you understand that. 21 MR. CAMERELLA: No problem. 22 MEMBER GRAY: So that having been said, 23 I would move to approve the variance requested as it 24 encroaches no closer to the lot line than is -- what
97 1 is existing. 2 MEMBER BRENNAN: Support. 3 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: It's been moved and 4 approved. Is there any further discussion? 5 Mr. Saven. 6 MR SAVEN: I just want to point out to 7 Michael is the fact that you did have some residents 8 here that were very concerned about the noise level, 9 music and everything else, as a concern, and it was 10 presented to this board. The board also is looking 11 at you to be a little more accommodating to your 12 neighbor. 13 MR. CAMERELLA: I understand. 14 MR. SAVEN: Is that understood? 15 MR. CAMERELLA: Yes, sir. 16 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Motion's been moved 17 and approved. Any further discussion? 18 MR. SCHULTZ: Just one more comment 19 along the lines, if I may, Madam Chair. The City 20 does, obviously, have a noise ordinance that sets 21 decibel limits. We don't have anything that prevents 22 construction of a residential home at the time that's 23 convenient for the homeowner, but it does include the 24 music, and it needs to be appropriate and not a
98 1 nuisance. 2 So if he needs help with finding out 3 what the rules are, we'll be happy to talk about 4 them. 5 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: You heard that in the 6 back? You're okay? 7 MS. JOHNSON: She doesn't, you know, 8 want to cause more stress for herself, so she didn't 9 say anything. 10 MEMBER GRAY: It shouldn't be a problem 11 from here on out. 12 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Sarah, please call the 13 roll. 14 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gray? 15 MEMBER GRAY: Yes. 16 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Brennan? 17 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yes. 18 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gronachan? 19 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes. 20 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Reinke? 21 MEMBER REINKE: Yes. 22 MS. MARCHIONI: Motion passes four to 23 nothing. 24 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. Your variance
99 1 has been granted. 2 MR. CAMERELLA: Thank you. 3 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: And we hope that you 4 make friends with your neighbors. 5 MR. CAMERELLA: All right. Thank you. 6 7 CASE NUMBER 03-096 8 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Case Number 03-096 by 9 Kerns Brothers, Inc., representing homeowners at 10 24580 Queens Pointe Drive. They're requesting three 11 side yard setback variances for the construction of a 12 covered porch addition to an existing home located at 13 the above address in Meadowbrook Glens subdivision. 14 And so -- you are? 15 MR. HOLM (ph): Gary Holm with Kern 16 Brothers. 17 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Would you like to 18 raise your right hand and be sworn in by our 19 secretary? 20 MEMBER BRENNAN: Do you swear or affirm 21 that everything you'll tell us will be the truth? 22 MR. HOLM: Yes. 23 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. Go ahead. 24 MR. HOLM: Well, we just propose to --
100 1 I don't know if the board received photos of the 2 project. We're going to extend the porch. It's 3 basically a slab on the ground to the right of the 4 house, to the edge of house, and extend the shed roof 5 overhang to match to the existing edge of the 6 structure is what we propose to do. 7 We also have the homeowner's 8 association signatures, if you need a copy of that. 9 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Yes. Thank you. Are 10 you all set? 11 MR. HOLM: Yeah. 12 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. There were 13 forty-six notices sent, and without the homeowner's 14 association letter there is one objection, and this 15 is at -- the address is 16 24575 Kings Pointe. Basically they state that it's a 17 blatant disregard for the existing zoning minimums. 18 The variances requested is not in the best interest 19 of the neighborhood. If all of the homeowners were 20 to request such a variance, their homes would be on 21 top of each other. The homeowners on both sides of 22 this house were to request a equal variance, it would 23 be possible to have houses only 14 feet away from 24 each other. There's also the possibility that if
101 1 this addition would be allowed as requested, that in 2 the future the porch would be screened in or changed 3 to provide year-round living space, then this 4 homeowner, or future homeowners, would be then adding 5 another deck or patio to further extend their living 6 space. We are longterm home -- making to their 7 homes. We also enjoy any updates made to our 8 neighborhood. Builder does not understand how 9 important our neighborhood is to each one of us just 10 going for the maximum. 11 This homeowner's association letter is 12 signed by -- has five signatures, all on Queens 13 Pointe. 14 So I'm confused and would like that 15 clarified, and I will in a minute. 16 Building Department? 17 MR. SAVEN: Okay. This is very 18 unusual. Meadowbrook Glens was developed with the 19 criteria of eight foot setback requirements, okay. 20 Are you following me so far? This is how this was -- 21 this is how this whole development -- there are eight 22 foot setback requirements between the house and the 23 property line. 24 Because of the issue, once again, of
102 1 the grandfathering requirements, we have something 2 which is existing and now we're trying to bring it 3 into focus. 4 And, unfortunately, even by virtue of 5 the eight foot requirement being at one time 6 approved, we're still dealing with the setbacks as 7 they exist now for that zoning district, and that's 8 why the numerous setbacks are before you. 9 This is an enclosure. This is a porch 10 with a roof over it, which would have the same 11 setback requirement. 12 The garage that extends in front of the 13 porch meets the requirements of the front yard 14 setback, so all they're doing is just bringing it out 15 to the existing side yard of the existing home and 16 just enlarging the porch area? 17 MEMBER BRENNAN: Why do we have the 18 second variance request on the north side? There's 19 nothing going on over there. 20 MR. SAVEN: It's because you have the 21 sum total of the side yards. 22 MEMBER BRENNAN: But it's already 23 there. 24 MR. SAVEN: Understood, but you have
103 1 the sum total of the side yards are to be 25 feet, 2 okay. One's got to be ten, one's got to be fifteen. 3 MEMBER BRENNAN: I guess it's a moot 4 point. 5 MR. SAVEN: Yeah. 6 MR. HOLM: Is that where the property 7 line is supposed to be, or the adjacent- 8 MR. SAVEN: (Interposing) To the 9 property line. 10 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: I will clarify this 11 homeowner's association letter. It says that it's 12 signed by the board members and that the process 13 requires that all the neighbors directly adjacent to 14 the property be given an opportunity to review this 15 site plan and to sign off the plan -- sign off on the 16 plan if they approved the project, and that's why the 17 five address are on Queens Pointe. 18 So with that clarification, board 19 members? 20 MEMBER REINKE: I have a question. 21 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Member Reinke. 22 MEMBER REINKE: It's directed to Mr. 23 Saven, just for clarification point. You said this 24 subdivision was built with eight foot side yard
104 1 setback. 2 MR. SAVEN: That's correct. 3 MEMBER REINKE: Then why does it go 4 back to ten if that was allowed? 5 MR. SAVEN: Why didn't it go back to 6 ten? 7 MEMBER REINKE: Why does it go back to 8 ten? 9 MR. SCHULTZ: The ordinance changed. 10 MR. SAVEN: The ordinance changed. 11 MEMBER REINKE: If this was approved 12 building with eight foot side yards, the ordinance 13 shouldn't preclude what was allowed. 14 MR. SAVEN: We have a lot of 15 nonconforming issues out there -- I mean legal 16 nonconforming issues in accordance with the ordinance 17 as it exists right now. What we're trying to do is 18 bring this in line with what the ordinance dictates 19 tonight, what we're under. 20 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Member Brennan. 21 MEMBER BRENNAN: I don't see any real 22 big deal. It's an extension of an existing lot line. 23 It's meant to be a porch. If somebody wants to 24 change it, they'll be back in front of us.
105 1 I think we saw enough nodding. I'll 2 make a motion. 3 MEMBER REINKE: Go. 4 MEMBER BRENNAN: With regard to Case 5 03-096, I would move for approval of the variances as 6 submitted. These are extensions of the existing 7 lines, and this is an approval for a nonenclosed 8 porch with a roof over it. 9 MEMBER REINKE: Support. 10 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. Motion's been 11 made and approved. Any further discussion on the 12 motion? 13 (No further discussion.) 14 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Seeing none, Sarah, would 15 you please call the roll. 16 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Brennan? 17 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yes. 18 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Reinke? 19 MEMBER REINKE: Yes. 20 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gray? 21 MEMBER GRAY: Yes. 22 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gronachan? 23 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes. 24 MS. MARCHIONI: Motion passes four to
106 1 zero. 2 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Your variance has been 3 granted. Please see the building department. 4 MR. HOLM: Thank you. 5 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. That concludes 6 our evening of fun and cases, and now we have -- we 7 can move to other matters. 8 You want to go first? 9 MR. SAVEN: I've asked to have an 10 opportunity to speak to you regarding one of the 11 previous cases that was ZBA 03-050 and has to do with 12 2450 Shawood. It was the one which was presented by 13 John Kurkanian, and he had -- he came before the 14 board because he wanted to put a second story on his 15 building, and at one time he also came before the 16 board to redo his porch because his porch was failing 17 and he didn't receive -- he had to go to the city 18 council, he had to go to Construction Board of 19 Appeals, I believe to us. 20 He's been through the proper process. 21 What happened is that John came before us, and I 22 think he requested an extension. We gave him that 23 extension, and he ran into problems, if you could 24 recall, with his contractor.
107 1 Well, he got burnt again, and this time 2 his contractor went bankrupt. The gentleman did not 3 supply any plans, he did not -- to our department. 4 John wrote it into his agreement 5 basically that he must comply with all the City of 6 Novi building department requirements. He wanted to 7 get paid for the job, and he didn't pay him and they 8 just abandoned the job, or something happened. He -- 9 they're no longer working with them. 10 I have no building permit for this job. 11 We're pursuing the matter with the State of Michigan 12 right now against the builder, but during the 13 interim, as you're well aware, when we get involved 14 in extensions and granting extensions we have to 15 grant an extension because if he doesn't have a 16 building permit it lapses and basically expires, 17 okay. 18 I'm concerned about the legal problem 19 that he's in right now, and I am just requesting the 20 board, maybe even on his behalf, is that we grant an 21 extension, or a continued extension, until this 22 litigation issue has been resolved so he can move 23 forward. 24 MEMBER BRENNAN: Can we put a time
108 1 limit on it? 2 MR. SAVEN: I don't know. Is this 3 proper for me to make that request, or- 4 MEMBER REINKE: (Interposing) When 5 does his time frame lapse or otherwise -- the last 6 extension we gave him, when does that expire? 7 MS. MARCHIONI: We gave him an 8 extension on September 9th for 90 days. 9 MEMBER REINKE: So that's going to- 10 MS. MARCHIONI: (Interposing) December 11 9th. 12 MR. SAVEN: I really don't feel that 13 he's going to be out of that woodwork for a little 14 while. 15 MEMBER REINKE: I would like -- I have 16 no problem extending it. Since this is not going to 17 expire before our next meeting, I would like you to 18 come back to us and say you need this kind of 19 extension. 20 MR. SAVEN: You want him back here? 21 MEMBER REINKE: Well, yeah. I want 22 some direction from somebody saying I need 90 days, I 23 need a hundred and eighty days, I need a year, 24 because I think that -- we're at a point now that we
109 1 should give him an extension, but we should have some 2 kind of input on how long of an extension do we need 3 so we're not -- give him a 90-day extension, he comes 4 back in three months I need another 90 days because 5 90 days wasn't long enough, something. 6 I mean, it might not be a hundred 7 percent right, but I think it would give us some kind 8 of direction, which I think we need to have. 9 MR. SAVEN: And I thank you for giving 10 me that direction. 11 This was very unfortunate because he 12 was -- him and his girlfriend were so concerned about 13 making sure things were done right. He went to the 14 Expo Center, got ahold of Glen (inaudible), the House 15 Doctor. He recommended this contractor and this 16 contractor didn't do him well, and that was a sad 17 thing. But that's neither here or there. 18 I will go back to him and I will tell 19 them at the end of this period he does have to come 20 back to the board with a little more direction for- 21 MEMBER REINKE: (Interposing) He could 22 come into the first part of next month's meeting 23 under audience participation and request what he 24 needs and take care of it real quick right then and
110 1 there. 2 MEMBER GRAY: If he needs six months? 3 MR. SAVEN: Like I said, he's a little 4 nervous about it and I told him I would present this 5 to the board tonight. 6 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Mr. Schultz. 7 MR. SCHULTZ: If I may, Madam Chair, I 8 think the board has, at least on a few occasions, 9 extended these somewhat informally. If you're 10 talking about potentially a significant extension, it 11 would be my preference that it be an item on the 12 agenda so we can get the notice out there and not 13 have to argue about it later with somebody. 14 MEMBER REINKE: Just to cover it, why 15 don't we put it as an item on the agenda right now 16 next month. 17 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: First item. 18 MEMBER REINKE: We've got and it's 19 advertised and the whole thing right there. 20 MR. SCHULTZ: Okay. 21 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: And in light of the 22 current economic situation, I'm sure this is not the 23 only homeowner that's going through this, so this way 24 we have some sort of pattern.
111 1 MR. SAVEN: Okay. 2 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: All set? 3 MR. SAVEN: Yep. Thank you very much. 4 I appreciate it. 5 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: You're welcome. So 6 comes to my topic. New members for the Zoning Board 7 of Appeals. I don't know if we're treating them bad 8 and they're leaving us, jumping ship. It's all you 9 guys. They're all going to city council, so -- you 10 know, I heard rumors that Vern's going to go on a 11 road show and start entertaining and doing Comedy 12 Castle. 13 I would -- all kidding aside, because 14 today was a pretty hairy day, I would like someone to 15 alert council that we have an immediate problem here 16 and take it very seriously and get it on the agenda 17 as soon as possible. I did contact city -- the city 18 clerk and found that there are actually members -- or 19 residents that have applied and they had names, had 20 been interviewed by council, and once we lost our 21 alternate they were never contacted or they were 22 never moved forward to be reconsidered for the 23 position here. 24 I was advised by the clerk's office
112 1 that they weren't going to do anything until January. 2 Grant it, this is November, but if they don't start 3 petitioning until January we could be in a whole heap 4 of problems here. 5 MEMBER REINKE: May I make a 6 suggestion? 7 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Certainly. 8 MEMBER REINKE: If you have the time 9 for Monday's council meeting, I would be willing to 10 attend to support that we make a presentation to the 11 council briefly in audience participation that we are 12 in dire need, we need their help, we need it now, not 13 in January. 14 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Would you all like to 15 join me? 16 MEMBER BRENNAN: If you plan on coming 17 Monday, I'd come. 18 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. How about 19 Monday night, we'll all come and do the first 20 audience participation. 21 All right. That sounds like a plan 22 to -- I mean, and if you hear of anyone that's 23 looking for -- please encourage them. We definitely 24 need to do something.
113 1 If there's isn't any further business 2 for the ZBA, I call for a motion to adjourn this 3 meeting. 4 MEMBER GRAY: So moved. 5 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Moved and supported, 6 and I hereby adjourn the meeting. 7 Thank you. 8 (The meeting was adjourned at 9 9:42 p.m.) 10 - - - 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
114 1 C E R T I F I C A T E. 2 3 I, Cheryl L. James, do hereby 4 certify that I have recorded stenographically the 5 proceedings had and testimony taken in the 6 above-entitled matter at the time and place hereinbefore 7 set forth, and I do further certify that the foregoing 8 transcript, consisting of one hundred and twenty-three 9 (123) typewritten pages, is a true and correct transcript 10 of my said stenograph notes to the 11 best of my ability. 12 13 ------------------------- Cheryl L. James, CSR-5786 14 15 -------------- Date
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